First of all, the comment is not intended as either an elevation or a put-down of manga. It is not lesser nor greater than Euro-American comics--it is simply equal but different. This is, as I've said elsewhere, an argument about taxonomy, about where in the wider set called "graphic storytelling" the subset called manga belongs. Most I've talked with want to lump it in with "comics". I disagree--here's why:
I think kinds of storytelling are defined by their conventions...in terms of graphic storytelling, that includes "visual vocabulary," if you will. The visual vocabularies of Euro-American (henceforth "EA") comics and manga are different, in part because they are built from different artistic traditions.
Deppey even points to one of manga's most prevalent "vocabulary" idioms (one it does not share with EA comics) in his essay:
The tendency to drop into "superdeformed mode," where characters suddenly transform into ultra-cartoony versions of themselves when broad comedy is demanded, is a classic but by no means unique example.
While there is certainly a range of styles within EA comics--from the broad cartoony stuff of Asterix through the gentler humor styles of Archie to the straight-forward illustrative tradition of Alex Raymond, it is rare (I'd say "it never happens" but then somebody would be sure to hand me a dozen representative samples) for an artist to jump from one to the other in the midst of a story, other than for very specific effect...and certainly not as a recognized idiomatic form throughout the medium.
Other visual elements unique to manga include a use of backgrounds to convey emotional content. EA comics tend to have two background modes--either an attempt to convey a specific setting or no backgrounds at all (the latter usually after a scene-setting "master shot"). While color might be used as an emotional signifier in EA comics, the actual drawing of the background is not.
But in manga, the background of a panel is often replaced by an explosion of lines (what many western readers might misread as "speed lines") to indicate extreme emotion on the part of the primary character.
A third element of this visual vocabulary is a greater reliance on "silence". Yes, there have been totally "silent" EA comics--The Little King is a prime example--but, for the most part, the EA comics tradition is that even panels of pure scenery have some verbal content. It's a minor point, perhaps, but it changes the entire pacing of a story, such that manga has a different sense of time from EA comics.
Other critics have commented on this:
Indeed, the amount of wordless passages in any volume of manga may be striking to the Western eye. To 'read' manga is to read images - the rhythm is determined by the sequence of images. Of course, western comics also have a genre known as 'sourds' - wordless comics. As opposed to Japanese perception, such works are regarded in the West as 'experimental', 'avant-garde' - in other words exotic, or as a new (peripheral) phenomenon. However, even in the 'sourds', the sequence of images is not so much based on analytical montage in comparison to manga production.
...
As opposed to Euro-American comics, you will rarely find descriptive captions in manga. The use of these is kept to a strict minimum, which cannot be said of the prototypical European/American comic.
My thanks to Noiseman433 at comicon.com for pointing me to that discussion.
I think those differences in "vocabulary" (and there are probably others, I'm trying to keep this from turning into a book) are enough to classify manga as different from "comics" as traditionally defined.
Moving on to one other point in Deppey's essay that I didn't get into last time--
Deppey seems to make a lot of the manga publishers' "courage" in pursuing what he sees as a wider market in bookstores and by providing such a diverse range of material. (That all of it is aimed at a single demographic of "tweens and teens" seems to elude him; there is a wide range of adult-targeted manga in Japan, but damned little of it--if any--reaches American bookstores in translated form.) Among his comments:
What makes all of this so wickedly funny is that companies like Tokyopop and Viz are practically rubbing Marvel and DC's noses in the practices that have allowed manga publishers to succeed at levels previously thought impossible... and yet Marvel and DC still clearly can't figure it out.
Of course, the part Deppey conveniently ignores is the economics. Tokyopop and Viz are reprint houses--all the creative and production costs of what they provide to the US market have already been paid. They're just paying for US reprint and distribution rights, some translation costs, and some minor production costs in having the English replace the Japanese...and in these days of digital imaging, that's pretty damned easy.
In other words, the manga importers can afford to experiment (although, as noted, the experiment hasn't gone very far afield from the Sailor Moon and Voltron audiences they started with).
I'll continue this discussion in comments here and at comicon.com...but this is my last blog post on the subject. I'd like to move on to other things.
26 comments:
Look for future installments of this series, including Why frommage isn't cheese and Why aubergine isn't eggplant, coming soon to a mental ward near you.
As well, American English isn't Eglish because they use the word "chips" in a different way from the British!
Regardless, "manga" isn't going to save the American comic industry- It's going to replace it.
My thanks to Noiseman433 at comicon.com for pointing me to that discussion.
That was me. No need to thank me. I really didn't want to get into the "debate" (if it could really be called that), but couldn't just "stand by" while certain claims were being made in that thread.
I think kinds of storytelling are defined by their conventions...in terms of graphic storytelling, that includes "visual vocabulary," if you will. The visual vocabularies of Euro-American (henceforth "EA") comics and manga are different, in part because they are built from different artistic traditions.
Neil Cohn, who has been advocating a theory of Visual Language is probably as good as any place as any to get a sense for how to articulate the differences between different types of "visual vocabulary." It was through him that I came across the Image and Narrative journal which had the Aarnoud Rommens article from which I quoted as well as the numerous studies (some of which I pointed to in another post in that thread) documenting the physiological and psychological differences between readers/viewers of Japanese vs. US visual styles and art.
I think those differences in "vocabulary" (and there are probably others, I'm trying to keep this from turning into a book) are enough to classify manga as different from "comics" as traditionally defined.
See, while I don't necessarily agree with your main claim (the one here at least) that manga isn't comics, I also don't necessarily disagree with it, either. I think it is an issue that can be more thoroughly explored rather than derisively dismissed (not that everyone had gotten to that point).
I thought your analogy between the kabuki/euro-american drama and manga/euro-american comics split was particularly inspired--though I wish you could have articulated more about that. I ended up giving a mild defense of it here, here, and here.
While Dorian had a good counterexample to my claims, I think just like all the separate "counterexamples" being brought up by everyone in this debate--to quote the cliche--"the exeptions prove the rule."
Ultimately I just don't really think the term "comics" is necessarily very useful, but because of its historical priority I don't have as much of a problem with using it descriptively while qualifying with adjectives such "American comics" [as opposed to] "Japanese comics." Neil Cohn's Reframing "Comics" is probably another goo place to get started about the terminological debate (and as with his other works, he is approaching it from a lniguist's viewpoint).
The ironic thing about this whole debate is that it is all reminiscent of the debate that followed the Chinese Logician, Gōngsūn Lóngzǐ, and his Bái mǎ lùn ("A White Horse is not a Horse") dialogue.
But then again, maybe this whole manga is not comics debate is not a debate after all, given how some people have been approaching it, eh?
Jon:
Thanks for the polite and cogent comments. Yeah--hard to have a debate when so many want to descend to ad hominem attack before making any intelligent replies.
We waited a week for that?
Seriously, Pat, I don't understand your taxonomy. Manga and EA-Comics are both on the same level, and then what comes above that? Comics? Graphic Storytelling? How do plain 'comics' fit into your system? For that matter, what is your definition of 'comics'? You criticized McCloud's definition but you haven't offered an alternative yet. (I'm curious to see how you could come up with a definition to exclude manga but let in all European and American comics.) I'm trying to understand your hierarchy but I don't get it. Honestly, it appears as though you're using 'comics' and 'EA-comics' interchangeably, which seems...odd at best, ethnocentric at worst. (It also seems as though you're simply substituting 'graphic storytelling' where most people would say 'comics.' Which is fine, but it also seems to be needlessly obscuring your points, and if that's the case you're not really disagreeing with anyone: You're just saying "manga = Japanese graphic storytelling" and "EA-comics = EA graphic storytelling" whereas most people would stick with the more elegant term 'comics'.)
Again, I'm fine with you pointing out the differences you see between manga and other instances of comics. Heck, the examples you point out are interesting ones for discussion. But I still don't see how they do anything to exclude manga from the overall classification of 'comics.'
"Manga and EA-Comics are both on the same level, and then what comes above that? Comics? Graphic Storytelling? How do plain 'comics' fit into your system? For that matter, what is your definition of 'comics'?"
Here's the taxonomy as I see it:
Superset: Graphic storytelling
Sets: Comics (European-American), manga, kids picture books, single panel cartoons, animation storyboards (there may be others)
"You criticized McCloud's definition but you haven't offered an alternative yet."
Because I don't have a really good one. I suspect, for me, comics are like porn is for the Supreme Court--I know it when I see it.
My problem with McCloud's definition is that it's too broad--it would seem to include even a filmstrip and that's ridiculous, in my view.
" I still don't see how they do anything to exclude manga from the overall classification of 'comics.'"
Because I see "comics" as the name for the Euro-American form with its associated visual vocabulary and idioms; manga, with a different set, is a different form.
My problem with McCloud's definition is that it's too broad--it would seem to include even a filmstrip and that's ridiculous, in my view.
As someone else on that Comicon thread pointed out, McCloud's definition doesn't include a rolled-out film strip because of the "deliberate" qualification: The sequence of images on the film strip is an accident of the means used to produce a motion picture; it wasn't intended to be viewed as static images. (Unless you're Andy Warhol or some other avant-garde artist, but even then I think it'd be open to debate as to whether or not the film strip qualified as a comic. I tend to think a comic involves at least some non-photographic art and text. (And I know that McCloud seems to say that a film strip is just a slow comic (p.8 of UC, for those of you playing along at home), but he says that before he adds the 'deliberate' qualifier to his definition.))
Because I see "comics" as the name for the Euro-American form with its associated visual vocabulary and idioms; manga, with a different set, is a different form.
Well, that's great, but as someone said in response to your other post, then all you're doing is trying to convince others to adopt your own private language. Personally, I think it's odd to classify an art form based purely on its region of origin. So what happens if a Japanese artist illustrates a black-and-white Wolverine comic and it's published by Marvel in America? What if it's published by Kodansha in Japan?
And without you being willing to even offer up a stab at a workable definition of what you want to mean by comics (and how it includes comics from this region but not that one), it seems as though your association of 'comics' with strictly 'EA-comics' is based on nothing more than preference and familiarity: "I've always called these things comics but not those things so those other things must not really be comics."
"Personally, I think it's odd to classify an art form based purely on its region of origin."
And can you please point to me where I do that?
Sure: here and here.
A question:
I an American comics creator made a work with those things that you say differentiate manga from EA comics (superdeformity, silence, use of backgrounds to convey emotion, etc.) would this work then be manga, or would it just be an American comic utilizing techniques common to manga?
John:
Very funny. Can you point to specific phrases or sentences, rather than the entire essay?
Shawn:
Depends on how much you used the manga idioms. If I write a novel in which a character uses "me gusto" (the Spanish idiom that translates roughly as "I like it") as a catchphrase and uses it multiple times, I haven't written a Spanish novel.
Pat: I'm not going to pick through your posts again line-by-line. But your equation of 'comics' with sequential art from Europe and America (with no further qualifications to explain why those get grouped as comics but others don't) makes it seem like you're simply identifying an art form based on the region it originates from.
John:
No--I'm identifying it by the visual vocabulary and idioms it uses. I chose "comics" to identify Euro-American works because it's a Euro-American word. "Manga" is a Japanese word that identifies the related--but not identical to my mind--form that originates in that country and builds from a different tradition.
If you wrote a novel entirely in Spanish, though, it's still a novel, no matter what language it was originally in, nor what languages it is translated into.
Like wise, comics are comics no matter what narrative conventions are used, nor what language they originate in.
Shawn:
I take your point--but narrative conventions do make a difference in determining what form a story is, literarily.
If I tell a story in straight prose, I've written a novel (Moby-Dick). If I tell it in verse, I've written an epic poem (Evangeline). If I tell it in dialogue and stage directions, I've written a play (Death of a Salesman).
Why shouldn't the same be true in graphic storytelling?
If I tell a story in straight prose, I've written a novel (Moby-Dick). If I tell it in verse, I've written an epic poem (Evangeline). If I tell it in dialogue and stage directions, I've written a play (Death of a Salesman).
Why shouldn't the same be true in graphic storytelling?
It is. Let's take a look.
If I tell a story in 22 pages, I've written a single issue. If I tell it in 48 pages, I've written an Prestige Format OGN. If I tell it in single issues, that spans 6 issues, I've written an arc.
All of them are still comics.
If you had a manga artist do all the same, how is it not a comic? Because of the prevailing style that differs from most contemporary American comics? Is that why?
Its like saying that Elmore Leonard isn't a writer because he never uses any other word besides "said" when writing dialogue in his books.
Where exactly does this leave Tohei's Wolverine: Snikt? Comics? Manga?
Spencer:
You're comparing lengths. I'm comparing specific forms of writing...an epic poem and a novel might easily be the same length in word count, but one is written in rhyme (a specific "idiom," if you will) and the other isn't.
I'm not familiar with Tohei's Wolverine story--if he uses the idioms of manga, yeah, it's manga, no matter what language it was originally written in or what country it was originally published in.
Ok.
What about a comic that uses exposition as opposed to one that doesn't? Or a silent comic? Or Joe Casey's Intimates which is a just a huge mess of all kinds of narration? There all different ways of telling a story, but they're doing the same thing. You're examples, as different as they are, all have one basic thing in common: the written word.
And what do Manga comics and EA comics have in common? Sequential art with a narrative.
Everything else is cosmetic.
First, this is pure semantics. You're putting manga and EA comics under the same umbrella ... you have decided that umbrella is called "graphic storytelling" instead of "comics". Which is fine. But when you start talking in your own language, you can't expect people to understand what you're saying.
Second - with all respect to Jon - that kabuki analogy is nonsense. You are defining manga by tendencies which you acknowlegde are inconsistent. Kabuki has rules. It's not like they sometimes break into a kickline or shout "Stella!". It is a rigid, formal theatre utterly bound by convention. If your definition of manga as "different" relies on "sometimes" and "usually" .... it's not a definition, it's a hunch.
"Thanks for the polite and cogent comments. Yeah--hard to have a debate when so many want to descend to ad hominem attack before making any intelligent replies."
If someones said, a black person is not a HUMAN in the "Euro-American" sense, would that require polite, cogent, and intelligent replies?
No.
You're a complete fucking idiot. And obviously a racist. Don't feel threatened, little man. Accept that "Euro/Americans" aren't the best at everything.
Mark, rather than reposting the whole response I made to you here, here's a link in my post about it.
And Pat, thank you for the kind words, and you are certainly invited to discuss this at my blog as well as anyone else that is interested.
Gee, who's the threatened one here? The person who thinks one country's pop culture exports are categorically different from another country's, or the one who anonymously called said person a racist fucking idiot?
Anywho, I think I'm with John (Jakala) on this. A few new definitions of words based on some generalities about "dominant idioms"... *shrug*.
Hypothetically granting your use of the word "comic" (in which case I suggest you give up the redundant "EA comic" tag altogether) - which is easy enough to do even if it's not going to make it into my personal vocabulary - what's the point? Are we to take your categories to imply that the manga "idioms" are so alien to most of us raised on western comics "idioms" that the only way most of us can enjoy manga is as a strange novelty? I think take the language analogy too far. Most of these "idioms" don't serve any specific purpose integral to following a story. Things that perform a function in a narrative rhythm don't dovetail that nicely with things that serve say, a grammatical function in a sentence. Stuff like superdeformations are just emotional cue's, akin to the laff track on tv (and mostly just as obnoxious). Even for people unfamiliar with it it's no great obstacle to following the show, just a curious phenomenon for crusty pop psychologists to mull over.
I'm not sure what would be a better analogy for what you call "idioms", but I'd suggest the evolutionary concept of "memes", self-replicating ideas that get passed from a vector within and between cultures.
As for manga vs. "comics", really no idea. I'm not sure a "healthy" comics industry would necessarilly be a better thing, if we define health based on the popularity of stuff like tv and videogames (which may be the realy competition for both comics and manga anyway), since qualitatively those "healthy" mediums are pretty abysmal. Personally I'm always kind of elated when I set foot in a Borders and see a huge wall of manga, but after about 30 minutes of scaning the shelves I'm always disappointed. I could easilly see myself losing interest in manga at some point, but still continuing to track down stuff by a handful of my favorite artists, and to hell with what the rest of "fandom" is reading at that point.
I'm also kind of interested in whether there's any market research indicating a relationship between the prevalence of other mass media in relation to comics. For example I recall Schodt predicting that thanks to the rise of videogames manga's popularity in Japan had peaked and would probably continue to decline. But they've had a huge videogame industry for at least twenty years now, so why are manga still so popular there? Why aren't "comics" popular in North America? If all anyone can offer is a speculative plurality of anecdotes I don't think we're any closer to knowing than just arbitrary geusswork.
Neil Cohn has posted his ideas about actual and quantifiable structural differences between e.g. American Visual Language and Japanese Visual Language at his forum:
The manga/comics divide
I've never found memes to be all that useful except as contemporary "pop psychology" metaphor for something that could just as easily be studied in other fields. The whole Lamarckian underpinnings of so-called memetic transmition is as useful (and as likely) as the idea of ancient Greek muses and epiphanies from a higher power.
It can be a useful metaphor, but it fails at being a good explanation despite all of the cross-disciplinary work being done in the field.
I think tht just because few people have given a good explanatory account, or even a description of solid structural differences, of what the differences are here doesn't imply that an explanatory account can't be given. Neil gives one way to look at the differences from a linguist's viewpoint.
The real question isn't "Are manga comics" but 'who cares?"
Pat, much like the supreme court, the "I don't know how to define it but I know it when I see it" is a dangerous fallacy. But that's really beside the point. Regardless of what you call them, the titles that include graphic storytelling that reach out the the greatest number of people will "save" graphic storytelling. If Marvel and DC want in, they'll get smart and figure out how to survive. If not, we'll all be reading Tokyo Pop or Viz or AiT/Planet Lar. (Is "Demo" Manga? Aaargh...!) I'm gonna go draw something now and I'll call it comics... unless I move to Japan...
I saw some wicked tribal work at http://www.vectorart.info
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